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Information War grave KB Alcock in Holland
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Paul



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 32
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch, Holland

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Information War grave KB Alcock in Holland Reply with quote

Hello people,

To inform local people and to honor war victims in Holland. I need information.

I'm searching for details about this Schottish private on the general cemetery in Oud-Empel (s-Hertogenbosch) Holland

Name: K.B. Alcock
Number: 14357720
Rang: Private (soldaat)

Royal Army Medical Corps
Attd. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Died: 5-11-1944
Age: 21 jaar

I know his name is Kenneth Baldwin and that he is Scottish, that's all.



Thanks, cheers Paul
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ADP



Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

Here is the information from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website:

    Name: ALCOCK, KENNETH BALDWIN
    Initials: K B
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Private
    Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps
    Secondary Regiment: Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
    Secondary Unit Text: attd. 7th Bn.
    Age: 21
    Date of Death: 05/11/1944
    Service No: 14357720
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Southern part of churchyard.
    Cemetery: EMPEL-EN-MEERWIJK (OUD EMPEL) ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHYARD

I see no sign of him on the Scottish National War Memorial website.

CWGC info also at http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Kenneth-Baldwin-ALCOCK_Soldaten_0_524458.html

I see no birth likely to be him on the ScotlandsPeople website. The name is more likely to be English than Scottish. A search on Ancestry for a birth in England around the appropriate period gives none with the middle name Baldwin. On searching without the middle name, there are 19 results for 1923 5 years. 13 of these have a middle initial, none of them B, so discounting them, that leaves 6 results, but no obvious way to choose between them. As a possibility I looked at the 6 records to see if by chance any of them had a mother's maiden surname of Balwin, but no, no Baldwins there.

ADP
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Paul



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 32
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch, Holland

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ADP,

Thanks for your quick reply!

I did find the CWGC files, that's where I found the Kenneth Baldwin names. The info at Weltkreigsopfer I added myself some moths ago, using the information of CWGC.

There are no records of anything about him here in the Communical archives. I think he was floating in the river Maas, because that's where the cemetery is next to. There are no other war graves on this cemetery.

That was a great idea to search these records, to bad it brought nothing! I don't know how it goes in the Royal Army, is it normal that people from England serve in a Scottish regiment?

I think it would be a hard struggle to get information.
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Adam Brown



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 722
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Is it normal that people from England serve in a Scottish regiment?


By 1944 many Scottish units had non-Scots serving in them (and many English regiments had Scots in them) however in this case if you look at his CWGC entry the Argyll & Sutherland highlanders was his secondary regiment. He was attached to the 7th Argylls from the Royal Army Medical Corps.

It doesn't say which RAMC unit he had been serving in so there are no clues there.

There was a file similar to Soldier's Died in the Great War for the Second World War which quite often gives the place of birth and this man will be on it but until I check it I can't be sure it will give his place of birth.

I'll get back to you in a while with another update.

Kind regards

Adam
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Adam Brown



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 722
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul

I hope this helps

Kenneth B ALCOCK
14357720
Private, Royal Army Medical Corps
Born: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Residence: Hampshire, England
Western Europe Campaign 1944-45
05/11/1944

Kind regards

Adam
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Paul



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 32
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch, Holland

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your reply!

This could help me a lot, I will search with this information.
I will get back to you if it helped me.

Thanks!!
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1788
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole subject of Regiments/Corps, units and attachments can be very confusing so I will try and explain a little. The following has applied since the 1920s - first world war was a little different.

Every soldier has a Regiment or Corps (the cap badge he wears) and a unit (a formed body of men to which he is posted). For example a man might have had a Regiment of KOSB and a unit of 7th Bn KOSB. Since 1920s, some men of certain corps have been on the posted strength of infantry units, mainly men of RAMC, RAPC, REME and ACC.

In this case his Regiment/Corps was RAMC but there is some confusion about his unit because of the way CWGC holds records. CWGC has no data field for unit so I think that it stores it in secondary regiment and secondary unit text fields, even though this is the primary unit with nothing secondary about it. It would be nice if someone with detailed knowledge of CWGC records could confirm this. To complicate matters further, a soldier on the posted strength of one unit could be attached to a secondary unit for a period of up to six months. Unfortunately men of Corps were often wrongly referred to as being attached to units when they were actually posted.

In the early years of my own Army career (1960s onwards) I was in the RAPC (my corps) and posted to various units including 1 KOSB, RHQ SG and 1 GORDONS (note that I am English and these are Scottish units). I was never attached to a secondary unit but was often referred to as 'Corps attached' to my posted unit.

I think the problem is that the the CWGC has a database layout which suited the WW1 structures (of which I know much less) and has no actual field available for primary unit (which would be needed by members of corps serving with e.g. infantry units).

A man in the RAMC could of course be on the posted strength of an RAMC unit but I think it unlikely in this case. I think it more likely that he was on the posted strength of 7th Bn A&SH (on a permanent basis) and not actually attached.

During my service, a posting to for example an infantry regiment would be normally 2.5 to 3 years but could be extended up to 4 years. We would often be required to wear parts of the unit uniform to which we were posted, for example tartan trews or a kilt but would always wear our own (in my case RAPC) cap badge.

I hope you find this interesting and not too confusing.

\Paul
_________________
www.ukwarmemorials.co.uk
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Paul



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 32
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch, Holland

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Spoos,

Thanks, this is very interesting but really confusing for me. It doesn't make the search more easy.
Too bad the CWGC uses a wrong database for WW2 victims. But still good work of the CWGC that they placed all files on the internet!

Do you think there is a way to contact fellow servicemen of Alcock that served in this 7th Bn A&SH?

Cheers Paul
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ADP



Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm,

The results from Ancestry are as follows, but alas none from Sheffield; unless the Sheffield born one is mis-transcribed somewhere.

    Name, Date of Registration, District, County
    Kenneth Alcock, Apr May Jun 1918, Prescot, Lancashire
    Kenneth Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1920, Belper, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire
    Kenneth Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1922, Chorlton, Lancashire
    Kenneth Alcock, Apr May Jun 1922, Runcorn Cheshire
    Kenneth Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1925, Stoke T, Staffordshire
    Kenneth Alcock, Apr May Jun 1928, Warrington, Lancashire

    Kenneth G Alcock, Apr May Jun 1918, Dudley, Staffordshire
    Kenneth J Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1920, Kings N, Warwickshire
    Kenneth Ao Alcock, Oct Nov Dec 1922, Luton, Cambridgeshire/Bedfordshire, Huntingtonshire, Northhamptonshire
    Kenneth J Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1922, Cheale, Staffordshire
    Kenneth M Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1922, Easthampstead, Hampshire, Berkshire
    Kenneth N Alcock, Apr May Jun 1922, Cheadle, Staffordshire
    Kenneth A Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1923, Hull, Yorkshire
    Kenneth E Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1924, Dover, Surrey,Kent
    Kenneth G Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1924, Stoke T, Staffordshire
    Kenneth A Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1925, Burton
    Kenneth C Alcock, Jan Feb Mar 1925, Derby, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire
    Kenneth W Alcock, Jul Aug Sep 1925, Birmingham N, Warwickshire
    Kenneth L Alcock, Oct Nov Dec 1926, Birmingham S., Warwickshire

ADP
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Paul



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 32
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch, Holland

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is strange, most likeley not all births are added to the list.
I searched other birth records today on the net but no Kenneth Baldwin Alcock.

I think the birth records aren't complete or there must be a wrong spelling or something.
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1788
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could try the contact page of the A&SH Regimental Association website.

http://www.argylls.co.uk/index.htm

\Paul
_________________
www.ukwarmemorials.co.uk
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Paul



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 32
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch, Holland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did sent this website a mail but didn't get a reaction yet. Hopefully they can help with the search.
Too bad i'm still not getting near a sollution, it will be a hard struggle I think.

Any more tips for me?

Thanks guys!
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kenmorrison



Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 734

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul
From the Free Births, Marriages and Deaths web site
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Kenneth B Alcock born January-March 1913
Mother's name - Sexelby
Birth registered at Eccleshall - from 1934 births in this area were registered at Sheffield.

Ken
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kenmorrison



Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 734

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed just realised that would make him 31 not 21, sorry
Embarassed
Ken
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Adam Brown



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 722
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken

There are no family details on the CWGC entry and no inscription on the stone. Maybe you have got the right man and the then IWGC made a mistake? 21 / 31 it's not like it's 21/ 46. It could be an easy mistake to make and if there was no family to correct it...

Adam
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