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German grave missing from CWGC records

 
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1788
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: German grave missing from CWGC records Reply with quote

I photographed 18 foreign war graves in Troqueer Burial Ground but the CWGC states on its website that it only has 17. In an attempt to find why I have an extra one, I mailed CWGC with the 18 names I have and asked who they did not have. They replied that they did not have a German named Agofanow (see photo). The stone is exactly the same as the the other Germans and is in the plot beside other war graves so it seems that CWGC have a hole in their records.

Before I write back to them with a photo, anyone come across anything like this before?



\Paul
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apanderson



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 6909
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

There's a shared grave (WW1) in the Western Necropolis for 2 German men and I couldn't find anything for them on CWGC - in fact how do you search for anyone of a nationality other than those listed?

Like the stone you found, this one is in beside a group of CWGC stones, but it sits at the end of a row - slightly conspicuous by it's position. It's mentioned on the Cemetery blurb - " . . . . . . in Section P. Also in this group are two inter-war service burials and two German war graves."

The photo of this stone is on page 49 (in case you want a wee look) and the names are:

WILLY FELD 25.8.1917 and ERICH JAGUSCH 28.8.1917

Anne
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David McNay
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1556
Location: Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

German War Graves will not be listed on the CWGC. they will be listed on the German War Graves Commission, the Volksbund Deutscher Kriegsgraberfursorge.

http://www.volksbund.de/

I've used the site once. It's in German, but there is a "how to" guide somewhere online for those of us who don't speak German.
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DerekR



Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 809
Location: Hawick

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting as I was under the impression that all German graves were concentrated at the large German cemetery at Cannock Chase in the 1960's.
But this is not the case.
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right that you cannot find the names on CWGC but the cemetery description gives (in this case) a count of 17 and as I photographed 18, I asked CWGC who I had that they did not. I will try and find him on the German equivalent of CWGC and then mail CWGC to suggest they update their records. It seems clear to me that they do maintain it in practice.

Regards

Paul
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David McNay
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What nationalities were the other 17?
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Adam Brown



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 722
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spoons wrote:
I will try and find him on the German equivalent of CWGC


It looks like it would be from this webpage:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/suchanfrage_direkt.asp

I couldn't find any English guide I'm afraid and with my poor German I sumitted a request on the wrong form before finding this one. Embarassed Hopefully you can make a better attempt Paul.

Adam
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1788
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 18 foreign war graves are:

8 Norwegian, all Navy but I don't know if they are Royal or Merchant

8 German

2 Italian

\Paul
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1788
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent a mail to CWGC today suggesting that there might be a problem with their records and included this photo showing Agofanow between 2 other war graves in the middle of the war grave plot.

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Adam Brown



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that Wassili Agofanow does not have a date of birth on his headstone which suggests to me that the German authorities after the war knew little about this man.

Perhaps he was a non-German serving in the Wehrmacht and that is why he has been missed by the CWGC and VDK?

It's good to see his headstone is still looked after though and this 'forgotten' German has had two bunches of fresh flowers recently left at his grave.

Adam
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, I commented on the missing date of birth in my mail to CWGC, all the other German gravestones have it.
\Paul
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just received the following reply from CWGC

\Paul

Thank you for sending the photographs of the grave of Wassilli Agofanow, in Troqueer New Burial Ground. Examination of our archival records indicate that whilst he was in our listing of German burials, his name was, for whatever reason, not included when the information was transferred at the time our printed records were computerised.

Your e mail has been forwarded to our Records Department so that his details can be added, and I will e mail you again when the process is complete. Checking our records, it appears that we were never provided with a date of birth for this individual by the German Service Authorities after the war.

I hope this is explanatory and thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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DerekR



Joined: 04 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done Paul.
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spoons



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Received a final mail from CWGC yesterday.

"Further to recent correspondence with regard to Soldier Wassili Agofanow, our records have now been updated, to record as follows:

Soldier AGOFANOW, WASSILI
Regiment: German Army
Service No: 55273
Date of Death: 14 June 1944
Commemoration: TROQUEER NEW BURIAL GROUND
United Kingdom
War Graves Group 2nd Ext Sec H Grave 229.

Location: Troqueer is 1 mile South-West of Dumfries railway station.

Historical: There are 8 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-1918 war here. There are 34 Commonwealth burials of the 1939-1945 war here, including 1 unidentified airman of the R.A.F., (buried in the Service Plot, grave 115). Most burials are in a Service Plot but there are a few in other parts of the cemetery. There are also 18 Foreign National burials and 1 Non World War burial here.

Thank you again for bringing this to our attention."

Although the detail about foreign graves is not available online, it is interesting that it is available on their internal computer system.

\Paul
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David McNay
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent work Paul, well done.
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